Ive been travelling from Michigan to Cali for almost a month now, keeping a journal, making dubs, etc.. my plan is to find a place to live in the SF-Bay Area... maybe oakland, santa cruz, i dont know for certain.. anyway, if anyone on here lives in those areas, id love to connect and say hello, or go to a cool show, or whatever really.

or if anyone has any advice for what places they prefer, what the differences are between oakland and san francisco..

basically, i want to be able to go and see cool electronic shows, have stuff to do in the area, be able to get medical marijuana (without TOO much hassle) and generally go and be happy..


Any advice is greatly appreciated..

I suppose this sounds kinda like a personal-ad, except i don't plan to hook up with anyone who responds.. lol.

oakland is something you might be able to afford. san fransisco, doubtful

my fam is from Michigan. Been trying to convince them to leave that sinking ship but they just wont listen

SF has a lot of yuppies hipsters and faux hippies, they have money and are "spiritual" and alot of whom are actually pretty cool, if you can ignore hippie euphemisms and "burner wear"


Oakland has a more sorta punk /folky and DIY sort of folks along with hipsters that are slummin' it. A lot of stuck up activist types who are actually really cool, if you can get over the self righteousness and at least give a valid argument to why you aren't fighting the power or joining copwatch.

Oakland is cheaper, and definitely more ghett-ro .
SF smells more like piss, and is pricier.


SF has a shit ton of parties every week.
Oakland has sideshows.


SF has alot of places to eat out late.
Oakland has a couple of taco trucks.

SF is cold.
Oakland is warm.

ummm.. some random thoughts:


i hella <3 oakland.

Oakland booty




hope that helps a bit.

if you have a car you can easily live in oakland and party in SF. For some reason bay area residents really keep a tight line between the city and east bay localities, but that's no reason to buy into it. Live where its cheap but close enough to hit all the dope spots (and the BART). Just not too cheap, oakland has some SCARY spots in it.

the guy above was spot on in the culture. be aware that you WILL be surrounded by hippies and hipsters, and bay area people generally seem to lack the genes necessary to understand sarcasm and irony (so be aware if you have a sense of humor). You will have to put up with a lot of self righteousness, new age spirituality bs, and PC bullshit. But the food is great, the music is awesome, the drugs are second to none, there are tons of interesting people, and its one heck of a party town. Kinda wish I lived there now for school, but I gots no $$$ for that

You mean SCARy as in gangs roaming around in ghetto areas? or a different kind of scary?

hhmm.. they both sound intereesting and a little shitty.. where do you both live at now? do you live in CA?

also, in your humble opinions, do you think its harder to make friends in SF (..or Oakland..?) if you're not a faux-hippie or a hipster or punk? Because I'm really neither a hipster/hippie or anything, im into hip hop and electronic, but you probably wouldnt notice from how i'm dressed. lol.

yea dude making friends in SF is hard unless you got loads of $$$ to be in the right places at the right times...

hahaha burner wear! LOL!
come to ashland! the boys wear tutu's 24-7 and think its cool

I'm an born and bred LA native, but I visit SF regularly. Because its dope. LA, SF, and NY are my kind of towns


btw "burner wear" is actually referred to as "feather leather" and originated in the UK back in the early 90s. Burners just jacked the style and pretended like it was their own.

Nevada City or Grass Valley! Or anywhere on or near the Yuba River! This area is just north of Tahoe and the Interstate. Its a super nice area and the Yuba runs clear and warm in the summer. Worth Checking out. SF in an hour or 2 away. Closer to home from Burning Man!

Find a cool place and I'll come out and we can set up an op.

Enjoy California.

Lived in the Bay my whole life spent the last 6 or 7 in oakland. Go Oakland, heres why.

1. Centraly located in the bay close to San Jose and the city. Can get anywere on bart,

2. It's affordable on bay area terms. I lived in West Oakland in a pimp ass 2 bed. apartment for 1000 a month. It's mos deffinetly not the best neighborhood but I got along with all my neighbors once they knew who I was. Plus if ya make hip hop beats their pretty easy to sell.

3. If oakland is full of slummin hipsters S.F.m is over run with self riteous pretencious deutcghers in dolce and Gabana lookin 4 their next fix. But yes theirs a shit ton of hipsters most of em arn't so bad once they put down there im super cool living in the ghetto fasad,

4. to me it's an excellent balance of a big city and a tight community.

I'm up in Humboldt now it's pretty damn nice up here too

WAT?

never heard this before. I've been in this long enough to watch the whole thing come about. Can you substantiate this for my curiousity???? Not to say that it may not be true, but from inside the action, that's not how it went down at all.

Grass Valley/Nevada City/Yuba FTW! pure awesomeness.

StrangeFlow, here's 1 more meaningless opinion to add to your list....

I lived in teh Bay for a few years at the onset of this whole scene. Like '97-00.

Then, I moved to santa cruz for 9 years, and just moved back to the east bay about 9 months ago.

mostly, Ark Tapes summed it up, but lemme add to it a bit.

Santa Cruz: Lovely. Gorgeous. Inspiring......and often sleepy. People chill a lot there. Parties happen, but not as much as you'd think. The community is really tight, dancers are demanding, beatmakers are skilled there, and it's got vibe (read: hippie/burner/ college hipster freaks). There's a lot of beautiful women, and it's all very light hearted. If you want lots of natural beauty and a tighter community, this is the place. Alternately, I'd look at Marin as it's closer to SF and offers a similar vibe. It's about a 80 min drive to SF from SC.

SF: If you want your life to be a Party 24/7, this is the place to be. Beats are dope, tons of producers, tons of clubs. It all tends to overlap and be same-samey after a while though. Nights out, lots of super styley people, tons of drugs and drink, hot women everywhere, but there's an empty hedonism in the air-- everybody's at the party, but you can feel the vampirism, that everybody wants more. Tons of great music coming from here, but it's way expensive, dense and overwhelming, and leaves a lot of people sucked dry. Others are lit up by it's incessant partying and uber- progressive modernism chic. Be prepared to be confronted, SF is one freaky ass town. Also, the whole bay is Burner Central. Make sure you like Burning Man culture if you come out, cause it's all over the place here, along with every other major bit of urban trendiness.

Oakland/East Bay: Cheaper. Sunnier. Rootsy. This is where a lot of the names of the scene actually live, whilst gigging in SF. Rent is cheaper, food is great, and it's all a bit more peaceful and quaint. I feel like I can actually breathe in the East Bay vs. SF's overwhelm. There's plenty of good parties on this side of the bay, and when there's not, SF is just a BART ride away. Really, you don't even need a car here, just a bike and BART access. If you have a car, the drive over the bridge is pretty doable (besides rush hour, of course).
Berkeley, Oakland, and the EB just has a vibe that feels right for many-- it's dare I say, a bit homier. East Bay also has some great neighborhoods that are still affordable-- check Mills College Area, Oakland Hills, Albany and El Cerrito, and Berkeley. There's lots of great spots, and while it can be expensive, you can find some great deals too. Ya just gotta look a lot-- it's not always easy.

Making friends around here is not as hard as it sounds. Yes, some scenesters can be really jaded and pretentious. Yes, some people will meet you and then ignore you the next time they see you in public. People can also be "loose" and aloof here. All true. They can also be real, funny, rad, and easy to meet too. Ya just gotta get out there and get involved. You'll find the peeps you vibe with.

Either side of the bay, if you're coming for music, you've picked a great place. There's so much of it here, and there's a reason there's so many great artists coming from this area. Come explore it, and you'll get why.

confronted as in .. Vegans coming up to you when you're eating a hamburger? or confronted as in ... some thugs come up to you and want your money?

probably a naive question, just wanted to get it straight.

anyway though, thanks to everyone weighing in, you people are very nice!

im thinking of checking out the area, subletting in oakland for a month or so, and in the meantime checking out the area to see what works for me i think. Also i think Nevada City/grassland sounds interesting.

Confronted as in you're walking down the street and you see the weirdest, freakiest, strangest shit you've ever seen and nobody even bats an eye at it.

I doubt that anyone will just confront you-- what I meant is more that you'll encounter shocking shit all over the place here. I'm pretty used to it, and don't think about it much until someone who's new here mentions what a freaky place this is. That's all. No biggie, no threats-- just weird shit.

friend who lived in Bali for several years (after leaving the burner scene here in the US) found the whole thing HUGE over there in the hippie communities. "feather Leather" is a recent term for it that they use (hence the name of the Spoonbill track), and its generally acknowledged that it originated from some town in the UK that I forget (bristol or something, I dont remember) back in the early 90s in some niche community, also which I forget (punk or something I dunno). Made its way to the states via the trans atlantic hippie communities, made a splash at burning man (the world's hippie trade show), everyone assumes that's where it started and it becomes the "burner" look thereafter cause it seems fitting with the whole mad maxx/hippie vibe. I talked to some old UK heads who confirmed it but they claim it was never big there, it blew up in bali and other hippie communities long after its inception. Obviously I cant prove this but I trust the words of hardcore heads who have been at this for 30+ years. Add to that the fact that americans constantly steal shit from the UK and pretend like they invented it since nobody here knows any better.

The longer I hang around the burner scene, the more I notice that its not as "original" as I originally thought. Furthermore, you find all these people that seem weird and interesting and creative, but the more I'm around them the more I realize that its all style over substance. its like social junk food. There's great stuff that comes out of it, but there's also a toxic side to it that I cant quite put my finger on.

For Sure-- I know exactly what you're talking about, though, it's arguable that it's that way in any scene, and is likely part of the human condition.

Afar as originality goes, I often think of: "Good artists borrow, great artists steal"-- Picasso.

Why put such a high premium on Innovation? Most artists reference the context of the art that superseded them, if not the outright content of others. We all steal, borrow, and derive. Creativity exists inside a context of culture, and there's no escaping that. We are social animals by nature, and mutate ideas from other places to make them our own.

As far as "Feather Leather" goes, it's an interesting point. I've been close friends with all the pioneers of that fashion for over 10 years now. Like I said before, I watched the whole thing evolve from nothing. To my knowledge, nobody took the look from the UK. As far as I know it, It largely came from mixing Gothic/Industrial Fashion with the "Dark Faerie" thing you find in Oregon and Norcal, along with world traveler/yoga gear/new age hippie fashion, Raver/Tech clothes, and a healthy dose of Ren Faire fashions as well. Friends were inspired by each others coustumery-- Mash it all up, and you have feather leather, or whatever. Most of the style was created as performance gear for fire dancers, performance artists, and DJ's. It just kinda took off from there. Others latched on to it, took it in different directions, refined it more, and it became a "thing". No doubt, all kinds of sci fi movie costuming is a part of the inspiration as well.

That being said, the whole Goth/Industrial thing is largely from the UK, and it wouldn't surprise me if it came from that in some form. Or maybe 100th monkey theory. Or just that some ideas become likely to be explored. Who knows? Anyways, it is what it is. Thing is, most of the originators of that style don't dress that way anymore, and were just trying to get creative with clothing. Funny how people latched onto it and it became a thing. It's almost like people are so trained to be marketed to that they beg for it. What ever happened to thinking for one's self? I often wonder what teh underground would be like if we all tried to just get original and self express over just taking what's been handed to us.

I know what you're referring to as many of my friends have been in similar scenes for the past 20 years, some of my friends who were performers and clothing makes that passed through Bali regularly between the festival circuit in the 90's now run the Steam Punk themed stage at Glade and yes there are the welding art projects - see Mutoid Waste Co - who finally made it to their first burn in 2008, but they fit right in
the early nineties raves and crop circle parties did happen with a lot of flair and festival 'burnerism', many UK folks were well trained for festival survival (even Burning Man) from early rave culture festivals (minus the 'Leave No Trace' concept) and yes some of those folks do / did wear fedora's with feathers and corsets and tutu's, so I do agree on that, but not as what is now often referred to as 'Feather Leather' (which is also a derogatory term to some in SF).

I also knew / know a lot of the clothing makers who were making stuff in Bali back in the nineties and none of them were actually making and selling that style back then, even if they might have worn a feather on occasion themselves it was more a 'dress up' thing at raves and parties.

There were many roots and influences as there usually is, but to me Tiffa Novoa and Heidi (founder Ayya Wear) were the two designers who took it to the next level and to what is now more commonly seen and referred to as 'Feather Leather'.
(Tiffa introduced her style to Burning Man with the El Circo Friday night fashion show from 2000 onwards)

I have to second Metaphor in that I see the roots being very indicative of northern Cali and southern Oregon styles, native american influences, victorian fetishism, goth, industrial, west coast rocker, neo-tribal and urban futurist sci-fi themes.
In fact when Heidi passed, she was working on costumes for the Star Trek movie that came out last year.

More on topic though (sorry) , I also resonate with what Metaphor said, in the past 15 years I've lived in San Francisco, Berkeley, Half Moon Bay (about half way down to Santa Cruz on the 1 from SF) , Pacifica, El Cerrito, Oakland / Fruitvale and have also spent months up in Mendocino county, Sonoma and visited Grass Valley area and happily live in the city now.
I think it really depends on what your doing and wanting to do in life.
The lifestyle you would live in Grass Valley, Sonoma, Mendo County or even Santa Cruz would differ greatly to SF or Oakland by the fact they are more isolated, but I know many folks who have really tight little communities in those areas too. Berkeley and Santa Cruz are college towns also so take that into account also.

I found Oakland isolated because it's not very neighbourhoody, more just hoody. There is a reason rents are cheaper there and it's nothing to do with proximity to SF.

Even though I have many friends there and visit and hang out there plenty, I personally know at least 6 people who have been assaulted or held up at gun point in the last 6 months in Oakland. Nowadays I would ask a girlfriend or any girl I cared about to call / text me to let me know she got home safe from BART in Oakland, whereas in the city I trust they've made it home safe regardless if we speak or not. I have a guy friend who is large and buff and he got attacked outside Fruitvale BART too, so it's not just women.

El Cerrito is way less ghetto and similar in cost to ghetto parts of Oakland, also just down the hill from beautiful parks and great walks, it also has BART but traffic is worse from there (on 80) on the weekend than coming up the 880 from Oakland

Oakland hills or Berkeley hills are lovely though, but then the pricing is really pretty much same as SF.
hope that doesn't throw you into complete confusion, hope we've been some help

- I also just realized no-one even mentioned the peninsula San Mateo, Redwood City, or Daly City, or the tech geek / guru work area's of Cupertino, Mountain View, Sunnyvale.

There are cheaper rents in more suburban neighborhoods sometimes as there are colleges in and around the Bay Area (meaning more house share spots in suburbs) .

So you don't have to be as hipster as us all and live in Oakland or San Francisco with visits to Santa Cruz

well I often make the case that there isnt actually such thing as pure originality, all ideas are basically the offspring of already existing ideas. much like the evolution of life, nothing started as full blown human beings. It started as simple RNA chains and amino acids and divided/mutated/sexually combined from there.

The reason I bring it up is because few seem to have any respect for these roots and pass off these ideas as their own when they clearly arent. It also bothers me how pretentious the burner community can be sometimes about the "creativity" of its tribe members when most simply latched on to someone else's idea en mass, as you put it. This doesnt just apply to the fashion either.

As far as being original, I dunno. I actually kind of relish being one of the few that DONT care about being original and opt for jeans/cargos, tshirts, and hoodies at all the festivals. And not to say this about myself, but to draw from my experiences throughout many party scenes over the last decade (from the rave explosion to the dance community to hip hop to burner type festivals to hollywood hipsters and beyond), I typically find that the most interesting people I meet with the greatest senses about them are more often the ones that DONT try to be noticed or flashy, and the ones that LOOK the most interesting are usually the most vapid. Its not always the case but 10 years of experiences has shown it to a good general rule of thumb

so alright, im thinking i dont wanna live in san francisco,

(cuz of the rent being more than i probably want/can pay)

and oakland, from what i hear (from alot of different folks) is pretty ghetto, dangerous... im not looking to live in a quiet suburb, but i don't wanna get mugged either.. so..somewhere in between.. lol.

i guess i still want some place with
- nice weather ("nice weather" being anything besides super cold.. im from Michigan.)
- something going on culturally, a feeling that there's a life to the town.. (preferablly somewhat near some of the dub/glitch/ravey shit that people on GHF listen to.. which is why i posted here to begin with)
- easy accessibility to BART, so i can go into SF/Oak/etc etc when i want but not live there..
-an area with AS MANY STRIP CLUBS AS POSSIBLE!!!!

(no, i'm just joking about the strip club thing actually... but to weigh in on the creativity debate that...spawned from the...Feather Leather debate that somehow spawned from asking for advice about California, just opinion but i think people can be creative as they want to be. True, ideas are borrowed, TECHNICALLY you can't be 100% creative. But so what? You can still be 97% creative. I mean, look at Beck, for example. way back, he mixed a bunch of pre-existing ideas together, so TECHNICALLY, it wasn't creative from that POV, but how he went about mixing and to what extent was his own creative process. Then you look at someone like...i dont know, Jonas Brothers.. (sorry to all the hardcore fans in the room) they're using other people's ideas, but my god does it suck ass. I mean it really sucks ass. So i think, in conclusion, you can still borrow ideas from different sources, but use your creativity to make something new out of them, even if it's just from inspiration. I think it's creativity, although i am fascinated by the opposing argument, to be honest.

I'm prob moving out to the bay once I graduate. Been looking at Emeryville... Anybody know much about that place? Looks like Oakland to me basically by the map, but apartments are much better than in the city.


I'll be working at UCSF Mission Bay Campus if/when I move out. I've been leaning towards a place in the Mission/UCSF/Inner Sunset or even Portola Hill if there's a place.


Basically, every place in the city that is 1 bdrm has been about $1800/mo. Oakland is cheaper by a few hundred bucks per month but would require a 30-60 minute commute both ways each day. What's funny is that if I move back down to La Jolla I could get a place two minutes from my job w/ granite countertops, etc for $1400. Which makes it a tough decision to move to the city...

I didn't really like SF the first few times I was there, but I love it now. If you have people to live with, it'd be a no brainer to me. It's worth the experience of it, there's certainly an electricity there that makes you feel like you are a part of something very unique and very special. and tbh, the food alone is almost worth it.


and there's nothing like going out for some tunes and bumping into people like dov....

dude, move to LA, buy a hooptie and some threads and hit the low end theory, bassface/pure filth etc. easier to make friends. cheaper rent. less burning man hippie shit. less pretentious. better/cheaper/more food.
for the price of a decent place in the mission in SF, you can get a sweet place in venice beach or even santa monica if you look hard enough....

Agree, Northern Cali is over run with hipsters. Oakland is probably the only liveable place if you can keep your cool in a mugging. I only stay in Stockton cause its hood enough to scare the hipsters away and travel kids wont get off the trains here. On the other hand, theres no scene here because of it.

Santa Cruz and the little towns in the mountains there are pretty dope, as long as you can get past the college kids.


Oh and stay out of the east bay suburbs. Pleasanton, Dublin, Martinez, San Ramon, Antioch. All that stuff is just a trap and you'll never actually go to the city.

Much to reply to! Great thread, y'all!

Dov, thanks for your input. It's great to hear about the evolution of this thing from your more global perspective.

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The reason I bring it up is because few seem to have any respect for these roots and pass off these ideas as their own when they clearly arent. It also bothers me how pretentious the burner community can be sometimes about the "creativity" of its tribe members when most simply latched on to someone else's idea en mass, as you put it. This doesnt just apply to the fashion either.

I totally hear ya and agree with this. Knowing one's roots is important. When a person takes and idea from another, showing some gratitude and honoring where those ideas came from is important. To act like someone is completely original is a desperate grab at trying to look cool, IMO. Yes, some burners are guilty of this. Others are quite open about what has inspired them. It all depends on who you come across, I guess....

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I typically find that the most interesting people I meet with the greatest senses about them are more often the ones that DONT try to be noticed or flashy, and the ones that LOOK the most interesting are usually the most vapid. Its not always the case but 10 years of experiences has shown it to a good general rule of thumb

you know, I used to feel the same way. At this point, I can honestly say that I've met vapid people that look every type of way imaginable .....and on the flipside of that, I've met people who are very individualized who are also incredibly interesting and substantial. It just all depends on the person. Having grown up in SoCal myself, I suspect that this sensitivity that we share comes from living in a place where hype is over valued and it's expected that super pretty people will be vapid and self involved. Perhaps it's a bit of a cultural cliche in California? I've certainly met plenty of vapid normal looking people and plenty of interesting freaks.

Hopefully, we haven't scared off Strangeflow from coming here

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i guess i still want some place with
- nice weather ("nice weather" being anything besides super cold.. im from Michigan.)

East Bay. It's quite a bit sunnier on the East side of the bay. I'd say Albany or El Cerrito are great! It's where I'm living and I love it but....

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- something going on culturally, a feeling that there's a life to the town.. (preferablly somewhat near some of the dub/glitch/ravey shit that people on GHF listen to.. which is why i posted here to begin with)

There's nothing going on Culturally in Albany & El Cerrito. It's all Old people and quiet Asian Families. Great for chilling, super peaceful, cheap rent, sweet neighborhoods, but not much happening. Then again, it's a 10 min BART ride to Berkeley, maybe 15 to Oakland, and 20-25 to SF. In general, you're going to find that the nice safer places will be further from the action. That being said, it's all a short BART or car ride away (besides those parties in the woods in Santa Cruz, Grass Valley, Sonoma, etc...)

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- easy accessibility to BART, so i can go into SF/Oak/etc etc when i want but not live there..

Again, Albany, El Cerrito. You could live further away on a BART line, but it's more fun to be closer to the action. If you have a car, you could live anywhere. Here's the BART map so that you can get a feel for the areas that are close to the lines:

http://www.airwise.com/airports/us/SFO/ ... t_map.html

you could live in a place like walnut creek or lafayette, but it's suburban. Rockridge is nice but expensive. Berkeley's cool, but expensive, and can be dangerous too (though not like Oakland at all).

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-an area with AS MANY STRIP CLUBS AS POSSIBLE!!!!

Just in case you were serious AT ALL, that would be San Jose, Oakland, or San Francisco. The best will be in SF.

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Been looking at Emeryville... Anybody know much about that place? Looks like Oakland to me basically by the map, but apartments are much better than in the city.

Emeryville is a mixed bag. I work there everyday. It's kinda this border area between Berkeley and West Oakland that used to be really Ghetto and still is as you get to West Oak., but a lot of it has been gentrified. There's some great restaurants, shopping, and businesses. Pixar is based there. It's like renovated industrial urban chic that slowly morphs into some pretty hard areas. I looked at some great houses there, but they were in questionable neighborhoods, and slightly overpriced as Emeryville is now a "hot" neighborhood. I'd live in certain parts of it, but I'd also watch my back a bit while living there. Depends on what you want. There are defo some great new Flats around the area, and it's close to BART, Berkeley, and Oakland, which is nice.
All depends on what you want. I'm surprised you can get a place in La Jolla for that cheap! I guess at the end of the day, I feel that living in a lovely place in a place that doesn't inspire you may not be as valuable as living in a place that isn't so lovely but is inspiring overall.


Funny to hear you say that. I find the LA Burner community every bit as pretentious as the SF one, if not more. Point being, you'll find pretentious people everywhere you go. I don't for the life of me get why people say SF is so pretentious when comparing it to LA. They're so similar-- the difference is that one is more Hollywood and one is more hippie. Both are types of pretense. It just depends on which flavor you like.


Okay, enough of this! Back to work....

a) 30 min commute aint shit man get over it
b)emeryville is a nice medium. Not super ghetto, bland culture, and reasonably close to the city and berkeley and stuff



I know where they're coming from. LA people (normal ones, not the 'industry' types) are generally dumber and less obsessive over spirituality and causes and all the self righteousness. We're pretentious when it comes to music and fashion, but thats about it. The pretentiousness of SF is only rivaled by NY, in my experiences. Its probably hard to notice when you're in the middle of it, kinda like how workers in paper mills dont really notice the smell. The burner community here is SUPER pretentious however, which is why I almost make it a hobby to fuck with them every chance I get. Its like shooting fish in a barrel.

BTW dude who claimed LA has better food than SF: HAHAHAHA WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?! jesus man. really

P.S. Much props to the peeps contributing to this thread, this is a treasure trove of info thats nearly impossible to ascertain from traditional sources. Dov, thanks for the background, it helps paint a broader picture for me since all I have are secondary sources.