Hey, I need some help in creating bass in Native Instruments Massive which doesn't sound average and non phat. What do you guys do to create that perfect bass, which is creative and heavy as well. I've watched or read pretty much all the Massive tutorials via google search or youtube and have picked up some great tips from them but still when I put it all together, I don't get the sounds I want. It all sounds generic and boring to me.

For anyone with Massive, I'd appreciate the time to look at a couple of the basses I've created and tell me what I'm doing wrong or if you don't feel like downloading the patches, just some tips which would be good to know.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ug09h3

http://www.sendspace.com/file/vzxsg0

http://www.sendspace.com/file/k4auvr

Thanks

Honestly? I think that unless you're at a very advanced level, all the basic stuff within a popular synth like Massive has been done to death. Of course it sounds generic, because everyone and their dog uses Massive and applies the same techniques. Massive is also a subtractive synthesizer which kind of limits it to that type of processing. If you use a different type of synthesizer (additive, FM, wavetable, etc) then you can produce different sounds. The reason I've become such a big fan of Alchemy is because it is a sample-based and additive synthesizer and stuff just comes out really different. Something that's underused but great, if you have a PC, is z3ta+. B-Complex makes some amazing sounds with this.

I'm not saying that you can't create amazing sounds with Massive, I just think with the overuse of it that you'd have to be a really advanced level sound designer to process it in an original way.

i think you need to look at massive just as a tool, meaning look into getting sounds through a chain rather than just thinking that you should be able to do everything from within massive just cos the makers want you to believe that.

for example perhaps a dedicated flanger or delay will give you a better more unique sound than massive's internal one, or put your favourite guitar distortion in after massive to see how it messes up the sound.

its like a cup noodle, yes its meant to be a whole meal, but it doesnt mean you cant add a few rashers of bacon, or crack in an egg, or add soy sauce to spice it up a bit.

i'm a moron with synths, but thats what i do with samples, so treat your synth like a sampler if it makes it any easier.

experiment, there are loads of free vst's out there so it'll only cost you time. you could even copy the midi notes into a second synth, like alchemy to see how things come out.

^what they said, and this: the reason your sounds arent coming out original is that you are watching the tutorials to the most widely used vst synth in electronic music today, the same tutorials everyone else and their dog have watched (and made). try the things yousunkmygunk said, and layer another synth over the first one, or split it to three busses and experiment with effects on the busses. you will find original sounds, you just have to think originally..

good luck!

You should be spending some time with your VST getting to know it before expecting it to love you back. VST's are sensitive and complex. You have to treat them right damnit!

Get familiar with it's layout, understand what each parameter does and how it effects the overall sound. Explore every nook and cranny of those beautiful waveforms. Find the waves that compliment each other. Don't mash the filters from one end to the other, be gentle with them and give them the attention they deserve. Use automation to gently sculpt the sound until it's just right.

LFO's can be fun but don't go throwing them on every parameter on the synth like a slob. Be aware that every other producer out there knows exactly how to get "that wobble", just because you know how to do it doesn't mean you should all the time! You don't want to be just like every other producer that synth has been with, do you? Don't assume that because the synth has a lot of knobs they should all be doing something. you're just going to end up with a mash of noise if you do that.

Finally, don't be afraid to see some other synths on the side. It's ok, this is one of those "open relationships". you can even bring in some external FX to join the fun. Just be sure to give them all the same amount of attention to detail and you'll be fine. Otherwise they'll start competing for space in your mix and you'll have a gang of pissed off VSTs to deal with.

Option A: Learn Massive Better, or consider using a less familiar sounding synth (as stated above)

Option B: Learn to process and resample-- seriously, this will unlock all kinds of original sounds.


Consider that you'll get original sounds by being original, not by following what other tell you to do. Explore massive. Find your voice in it. There's a lot there in Massive that's been untapped still.



Not true at all. Massive is a wavetable synth. Agreed though-- using more interesting voice/oscillators for your synth wields more interesting results.

Not true at all. Massive is a wavetable synth. Agreed though-- using more interesting voice/oscillators for your synth wields more interesting results.[/quote]


Wouldn't go that far. Those two filters there left of the oscillators (pretty extensive in what type of filter to choose from and what parameters you can change too) are for subtractive synthesis.

Do you know what a wavetable synth is?

Those "filters" are actually oscillators. The oscillators in Massive use wavetables-- sampled waveforms that are strung together-- which you can blend and scroll through to achieve new hybrid waves, morphs, etc. Hence the "WT position" knob on Massive, which stands for "WAVETABLE position"

Yes, it's a wavetable synth, just like z3ta, motu's MX4, and the waldorfs, amongst others. Seriously-- try putting an LFO or filter on the WT position knob, and you'll get some some really outlandish sounds Depending on the wavetable you've chosen above in the oscillator section. I'm surprised that more people don't get this-- to me, it's the whole thing that makes massive interesting.

Yep, wavetable. Play with it, but don't go blind!


edit: after re-reading your post, I see that you're talking about the filters. Wavetable synths have filters too! As do Fm synths, etc. "Subtractive" has to do with the oscillator section of the synth, not it's filters.

You're both wrong. MASSIVE is a hybrid synth. As is pretty much every synthesizer on the market nowadays.

**ahem**

and I quote from the NI website for Massive...

"MASSIVE's sound synthesis is based on a unique Wave Scanning algorithm, implemented in three parallel oscillator modules. It combines the highest sonic quality with utmost flexibility and controllability. Think of a Wave Scanning oscillator as a multi-track sequencer; one of the tracks contains a saw wave and the other a pulse wave. In the vertical dimension, each of MASSIVE's oscillators allow these tracks to be faded seamlessly into one another. In the horizontal dimension a single cycle's read-out speed curve can be manipulated in three different bending modes. MASSIVE features an unlimited number of these "tracks" in each wavetable as well as two additional manipulation modes relevant for time and frequency settings. Of course, the “tracks” are not restricted to usual sawtooth or pulse waves. MASSIVE comes with 85 specially designed wavetables, each one with a unique combination of waveforms and particular sonic characteristics. Finally, a modulation oscillator can be used to vary the main oscillators' signal. It can be used for ring modulation, phase modulation (which sounds similar to FM) as well as further modulation modes. A noise generator provides an additional signal source that can be mixed in with the other signals, generating particular effects. It can, for instance, be used in combination with MASSIVE's comb filters for a physical modeling approach to sound design."

This is all under the SOUND SYNTHESIS part of the page. The only mention of subtractive synthesis is in reference to how the routing of the synth is laid out.

Face it. Massive is a Wavetable synth

All this digression aside, OP, play with massive more and you should be able to get some fresh sounds out of it

snap.

OK... so you take cup noodles and add an egg or bacon then make tender love to Massive... is that correct?


Gotta give props to Anodyne - his LFO tut for massive is killer.

I havent heard your samples but my first advise I wold give to someone just starting out using Massive would be ... dont fuck with the LFO.. Get a solid bass noise before giving the sound movement, there are a shit load of other options to achieve a bass line that is appealing.

Attack, Decay, Release, Voicing, Routing, Modulation OSC, Cutoff's so on and so forth.. Fuck the LFO and all the played out sounds. Create your sounds that you like.

^ quality advice.


BTW, I know I came off as a pushy prick earlier in the thread, but really, I was just playing-- it was all in good fun, no harm intended.

Purchase your plugins... in know more than half of ppl or even more are using ripped versions of Massive... purchasing it actually forces u to learn the device to its fullest... A lesson i have learned thru a good friend. Learning something in its entirety really can give u the edge over the rest of the pack... and then u can call shots on how to use or do something... like a doctor... didn't learn half his profession to be called a doctor... had to learn da WHOLe thing... but then again i can keep my teeth together and mind my biz....

do it like this:
massive > formant filter > distortion/bitcrusher and repeat with chorus flangers filters whatever
well thats how i do it anyway

to keep the thread on topic, i thought i'd download your patches & check em out. i noticed one thing in common across all 3 patches. an envelope is routed to the amps 'amp mod' in every patch. the decay level is kind of low so the 'phatness' trails off & lingers after the initial attack. to keep the 'phat', increase the level on the decay of the envelope routed to the amp mod.

there's a million+ possibilities in Massive (and post-Massive in your host application) for you to get creative. & since i don't know what type of sound your going for, it's hard to give advice. here's just a few fun things to try off the top of my head:

+ i noticed you have 'dimension expander' on some of your patches. try increasing the 'wet' mix to widen the sound.
+ when layering oscillators at different octaves, try using the fine-tuning to slightly detune a few. for instance, you have a few oscillators set at -12.00, -24.00. try setting them slightly out of tune (i.e. -12.58, -23.84). this can also help widen (or weird-en) the sound.
+ turn up the 'feedback' amp & see what happens. slight change could be drastic.
+ simple fx like 'chorus' or a slight 'bit crush' can really add some sparkle to synth patches. don't forget...sometimes it's nice to be subtle with your fx.
+ get creative with your modulations! modulate the modulator for a more interesting motion.

i don't know what style you're going for but hopefully my input is somewhat useful on your search for 'phat'. let me know if you need clarification on any of this, or if i'm just taking you entirely in the wrong direction.

Massive has a distinct sound, but don't let the fact that a million people use it discourage you. If it's helping you to be creative, it's a good synth

^ Quality Advice.

MAssive uses wavetable synthesis which is a restricted form of real-time additive synthesis.

it's a problem for some people that there is an overkill of plugins.

"Yo check this out, I got 5 gigs, of VST's".... I hear some friends say. That's nice. Thats like having a full orchestral instrumentation at your disposal.
While you could just study hard an excel in playing just one.

And yes massive isn't really a great choice when it comes to originality, unless you digg verry deep into it and discover a few sounds the others haven't discovered yet.

@miishmash: You might try layering multiple sounds to give them the "uniqueness" you're asking for. Also, a good tube/tape saturation is nearly a must for basses.

I found this huge resource in another forum. It is aimed at dubstep production, but it is still relevant for what you are looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JK4kYKxVP0&

I hope you get a couple of pointers as I did.

Those videos look pretty in depth, haven't had a chance to check them all yet, but they seem like they are very well done..

Thanks for the link..

what DAW are you using? In ableton you can automate the parameters in one clip in the envelopes, but unlink to the clip duration. that way you could make specific modulations to any parameter. i.e make an envelope of the pitch bend, really fast and there "you have FM"