After a Full day of happily mapping and midi-pipe(ing) my Vestax Vcm 600 and launchpad together, creating a bad ass setup I realized that the vcm600's controls appeared to be outputing super low res (steppy) midi signals causing totally un-smooth and almost granular sounding audio artifacts. I 1st noticed it when tweaking a filter frequency cutoff in Live. Then I noticed it with the volume faders even.
thinking I was trippin, I plugged in my m-audio x-session pro, mapped it to the same parameters and the audio came out smooth as expected. ...um Is this really possible that my 60 dollar plastic toy x-session actually outputs higher resolution midi signals than the 900 dollar 'built-like-a-Tank" vcm600?

I made some AUDIO EXAMPLES:
Both Start out with the vcm600 and then after the short silence It's with the M-audio x-SessionPro. U should notice the Zipper effect on the 1st half of the audio and Not on the 2nd half.
Volume controlling:
http://audiovoid.net/abe/vcm600_zipper_ ... _after.aif
Filter Controlling:
http://audiovoid.net/abe/vcm600_zipper_ ... _after.aif

_and here;s a zip of both if u can't/don't want to stream:
http://audiovoid.net/abe/vcm600_zipper_examples.zip


I have posted on the ableton forum and scoured the net and have come up with very little info on this matter except that I have found a couple of people saying that they were pissed that the vestax dosn't have 14bit midi. Could that really be the problem though?
Now I don't know that much about the internal workings of midi but I couldn't possibly imagine that any (ALL) of my old midi controllers from over the years Had this 14bit midi that the vestax apparently does not have.
Just dosn't add up.
ANybody here have a vcm600 btw? I'd love some feedback as any help on the ableton forum these days is next to none.

ps. here's the original ableton forum topic for any additional info I didn't include in this post:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=149036

edit: Just realized that my previous audio links were bunk. Fixed now.

This post doesn't help anything what-so-ever, but I can't imagine that this is a problem accross the board, sounds like a fault controller.

Is it new? If its new, swap it, if it's eBay, claim faulty device and get your money back.

I know very little about the problem but I know what you're talking about--it's an issue on the Korg padKontrol too (with the knobs--they only output 32 increments of data instead of 127). Try mapping the VCM directly to Live (not through any kind of midi translation) and see how that goes. Also look around for options in whatever software came with it (if any) and see if there's anything useful there, or some kind of on-device configuration. The last thing I can think of is if it can send midi over both USB and standard midi cables, try whichever one you're not using.

I guess those were pretty stock suggestions, no disrespect meant if you've done all those things--I remember your ridiculous setup diagram from a while ago and on the basis of that I bet your midi knowledge is on point If none of those work(ed) then it's probably with your particular one or some kind of obscure compatibility thing.

I had a similar problem with my padkontrol when using the rotary to scroll through banks of 128 samples loaded into sampler.

It jumps up and down by a few midi increments (not not by any set value it would seem) rather than one at a time which is a massive pain for what I wanted to use it for.

^^Yeah, that really makes it far less useful. The really annoying thing is that when it's in System Exclusive mode those knobs send in increments of 1 from 0 to 127, so it's not like the hardware can't support the resolution, they just slacked off on the firmware or something. If you have a mac (I don't) I've heard farmpad (http://farmaudio.com/) is pretty tight and fixes the knob resolution issue.

1st off thank you guys SO much for the reply's.

To answer some of the questions and suggestions:

"Is it New?"
No it's not new. I picked it up off of a friend who's had it for around a year but pretty much ad been using it (barely at all too) in his studio.

"Try mapping the VCM directly to Live (not through any kind of midi translation)"

Yes I have tried Not running it through Midipipe (thats
's the very 1st thing that I thought the issue might have been). I also tried using it both in Native Control Surface (ableton Automapped) Mode and Just in standard Midi assign mode. Thinking it also might be a hub issue I tried plugging direct into the computer usb port on And on Two different computers. Also tried different usb cables. No dice.

"Also look around for options in whatever software came with it (if any) and see if there's anything useful there, or some kind of on-device configuration. The last thing I can think of is if it can send midi over both USB and standard midi cables..."

No software editor or any way to configure the intrnal midi workings. It's hardwired just like the apc40, launchpad, and various other controllers coming out these days. That is why I was having to use midipipe just to be able to use the Vcm and launchpad together without cc's conflicting.
Also the vcm is midi over USB Only. No Option to even attempt to try out a standard midi cable connection. For such an expensive unit it sure has it's absurd amount of shortcomings.

Again. What I have learned from different posts, articles, and forums is that some people are angry that the Vcm dosn't output 14bit midi. But then again, would an x-sessionPro Really be sending out this Higher res 14bit midi andnot the vcm? Dosnt make any sense. Of course there's no way (that I have found) to even find out what bit midi your controller is actually sending out. It dosn't seem to be listed in the specs or manuals of any of them. The whole thing seems pretty shady and elusive.

Thanks yall:)

Honestly dude, if you're the only one on the Internet with this problem, surely it's a faulty controller?

Yea I am leaning more towards that conclusion as well. But not fully satisfied either.
If it Was faulty that seems like such a strange thing to happen. Although I Do admit that I have No idea about the internal workings of midi. Like i've said Ive seen some people on the net complaining about the lack of 14bit midi but everything else and all the information is SO fucking dodgy that I just can't help but think that this is a standard problem with the units that either most people don't seem to care so much about and/OR havn't even noticed.
I really need another vcm user to confirm or disconfirm my suspicions by listening to my audio examples and comparing them to their Own quick audio tests.
Anybody on this forum that might have one is probably at burning man right now anyways so this has probably been the worst week for me to even be posting about this problem. haha





My midi knowledge is average. And that rediculous setup diagram was a setup that I I only ended up using One time playing out with. I am so a.d.d. about my live setups that almost every time I play out I am using a different combination of controllers / software. Plus That particular setup diagram (although SO fucking fun) was just WAY too much stuff to ever bring out to a gig again. lol
Still always on the hunt for the perfect setup.
The Launchpad + Vcm600 Was 'Almost' that.

As far as the 14-bit midi thing, what I'm about 90% sure of is that it's a newer way to use midi messages to send much more precise values than the standard 0-127. So like you suggested, 14-bit midi is probably a much more advanced feature than the budget-range X-session would ever have. So it makes sense that people would complain that something as expensive as the vcm-600 wouldn't have it--if you're paying a bundle you'd want the higher-resolution control messages.

The best way, I think, to make sure of what's going on is to get a program like MIDI-OX (for windows, http://www.midiox.com/) or something else for mac (mac users, help out) and use its midi console to see what values the controls are actually outputting. If you move a control, the console will show a new line every time the device outputs a message and it'll show the channel, CC number, and value. If they're not consecutive numbers then the resolution is definitely low. You could also try moving it at different speeds--maybe it drops numbers when you move it faster because it's not sending messages often enough, or something. If you want to see how it's supposed to behave, plug in the X-session and do the same thing. If you do try this and you want help setting it up you can PM me, the program has a lot of weirdly-named menus.


I know what you mean about this, I had a different setup every gig for a while, settled into something for this summer, and just a couple weeks ago changed it up big time. I'm now using the Novation 25SL and a monome rigged up as an APC-style clip launch grid. I always want more knobs but I feel you, I hate being the guy with a bunch of bags whose setup takes up a shitload of table space. Plus the packing and unpacking...

14bit uses 2 midi messages instead of just one...the 2 messages form a single message which results in a range being about 0->16000...7bit midi only has a range between 0->127.

Dude. You're exactly right.
I downloaded "Midi Monitor" for mac and tested out the vcm and my x-session pro thru it and got results similar to what you said. On the vcm's faders unless I moved it Suuuuuper slow from one side to the other I only get like like 5 or 6 control messages out of the 127. wtf? Moving it average/slow I still only get like 15 or so. The only way for midi monitor to catch the full 127 range is if I move it rediculously slow. The knobs are a little different but reallt not much better.
Running the x-session thru monitor definitely brings up Way more messages per control however if I move a knob or fader fast there still turn out to be missing numbers *(but just not as many as the vcm). I guess thats to be expected?
SO damn. Does this mean my vcm is actually fucking up?

Yeah I think you can expect a few missing numbers. I'd guess either the VCM is fucking up and getting it replaced will fix the problem, or it's a weird compatibility problem with your USB hardware (as in the ports on the computer). It's very unlikely that it's a compatibility thing though, since you're on a mac and I'm guessing there are lots of people with VCM-600s and macs and they're not having trouble. So I'd try and get it replaced by whoever you bought it from first, since that's usually faster, and then if they won't do it go to Vestax directly and have them replace it. If the second one acts the same way you'll have to do more investigation, but getting this one replaced is I think the right first step.

Yea it wouldnt be the usb port thing because I tried it on multiple ones And on multiple computers.
Damn. That sucks if my unit is faulty. It's so weird because it seems just fine besides the midi seeming too low res. I guess thats just the kind of thing that happens with faulty midi components.
I'm going to have to try and get this thing serviced at a pro audio place I guess. Going thru vestax just seems like it'd be no dice and I bought it off of a friend/aquaintence so I know I wouldnt be able to have him buy it back.
I might just put it up on ebay for cheap. Im sure somebody else would be stoked to have it and might barely notice the midi stepping thing. AFterall it IS subtle. But an audio tweaker like me Can NOT handle it. haha

how does it sound through your friends cpu (or any other)? At least you could definately come to a conclusion by trying it out on another system.

Well, like I said I've tried it out on Both of my systems (that's two different computers-a macbok, and a macproTower) but You're right I should test it out on my girlfriends macbook as well. Same results will be produced though, Im sure.
Using that midi monitor program it looks like the actual 0-127 midi cc's this thing is sending out is an ultimate fail. Tjough not enough to cause any major problems. Just enough to hear this annoying stepping sound that drives me absolutely batshit!